Episode #7 How To Safely Talk About Your Mental Health At Work With Erin Callinan of Beneath The Brave
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In our 7th episode, Kerry interviews Erin Callinan who is the founder of Beneath The Brave, whose mission is to amplify workplaces, careers, and lives through strengthening mental health. In this episode we learn about what Mental Health First Aid is, Who to safely talk to at work about your mental health, your rights under the Americans With Disabilities Act, and resources to make this difficult task more manageable.
About Erin Callinan
Erin Callinan, MSW brings with her 13 years of non-profit leadership experience in the field of mental health, domestic violence and sexual assault. She is the Founder of Beneath The Brave, whose mission is to amplify workplaces, careers, and lives through strengthening mental health.
Erin is a nationally recognized speaker who provides cutting edge training programs, including her Leading From the Top course which gives companies the tools they need to support the mental wellness of their team.
Her passion for rewriting the narrative about mental health began in college as she adapted to “living with” rather than suffering from Bipolar Disorder. In 2013, Erin authored and published her book, “Beautifully Bipolar: An Inspiring Look Into Mental Illness” and began her career in mental health advocacy and motivational speaking.
She is a Nationally Certified Adult Mental Health First Aid Instructor and President of the Board at MIKID, a youth serving organization in Arizona for children and teens living with mental health conditions. Erin proudly received the Emerging Leader of the Year Award while working on her Masters from the National Association of Social Workers Arizona. In 2021, Erin was selected by Mayor Deasy of her hometown of Flagstaff as the recipient of the World Bipolar Day Proclamation, introduced and signed on March 30th.
Erin holds a Master of Social Work from Arizona State University and a BA in Elementary Education from the University of Arizona. She currently serves as an Advisory Committee Member on the Protection and Advocacy for Individuals with Mental Illness Council and was previously the Executive Director of Mental Health America of Arizona. Her proudest moment is being a Mentor to a beautiful teenager through New Pathways for Youth for the last 9 years
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Paid Resources
Mental Health First Aid Traning
Amplify Your Life Masterclass
Leading From the Top Workplace training
Beautifully Bipolar: An Inspiring Look into Mental Illness
Free Resources
Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC)
National Alliance on Mental Illness (NAMI)
Transcript
Kerry Finsand: 0:10
Hello there and welcome to Successfully Depressed. And I'm your host, Kerry Finsand. This show is all about helping. Solopreneurs navigating mental and physical health in life and business. Today's guest is Erin Callinan. She holds a master of social work from Arizona State University. She has 13 years of non-profit leadership experience in the field of mental health, domestic violence and sexual assault. She's the founder of Beneath The Brave whose mission is amplify workplaces, careers, and lives through strengthening mental health. Erin also is a nationally certified adult mental health first aid instructor. I wanna welcome this show, Erin. Hello there.
Erin Callinan: 0:48
Hello, Kerry. Uh, great to see you. Thanks for having me
Kerry Finsand: 0:52
Well, I appreciate you coming on the show. We connected about a month ago. I would say. I took your mental health first aid course. It was awesome. And I told a lot of friends about it. I've actually even used a little bit of what I've learned already. For people that don't know about that is the mental health first aid is basically, you know, there's there's CPR, for, you know, first responders. Uh, but this is the idea of this for mental health and everything. Can you tell people a little bit about how this program works and how you got involved in it?
Erin Callinan: 1:23
Absolutely. So Mental Health First Aid is ultimately for the general population. It's a public education course, a national curriculum, and it's really meant for anybody in the community to learn how to identify early in worsening signs and symptoms of somebody who might be struggling with a mental health condition. And then it offers the tools of, you know, what do we do about it? How can you step in? How can you listen? Nonjudgmentally give reassurance and ultimately get folks connected to professional and self-help resources. So. It's available to anybody and everybody. And just like you said, you know, there's regular first aid and CPR training and it would be fantastic if everybody was encouraged to also take mental health first aid. There you go, Kerry.
Kerry Finsand: 2:14
I'm holding up my certificate right there.
Erin Callinan: 2:16
Yeah.
Kerry Finsand: 2:18
What I took away from the course is there's, there's a lot to learn and everything, but you know, it's not. We're obviously not experts in taking a 12 hour course, but just gives you, like you said, resources information. It has the algee method to assess the situation. Can you kind of go over the Algee method briefly?
Erin Callinan: 2:35
Absolutely. I love that piece of this training because it makes it really easily accessible and easy to remember. So the Algee Action Plan is a five step plan. The A is educating folks how to access a situation where somebody might need support and then approaching them. The L is listen nonjudgmentally so really meeting that person where they're at. The G is give reassurance and information. And then EE at the end stands for encouraging professional help and self-help resources. And so it's fantastic for folks to take this mental health first aid course because they walk away with an action plan that they can use in a variety of different situations. And so, you know, folks don't have to have a specialized training or certification or work in the mental health field. It's really about giving people resources so that they can navigate conversations with strangers, neighbors, family, friends, coworkers, and they feel confident in knowing how to have those conversations. Like you said, it's not training somebody to be a therapist, a counselor. It's about having some basic tools to show up support and empower folks to get the help they need. And we get to kind of be that conduit as mental health, first leaders.
Kerry Finsand: 4:04
Yeah. What I like about the algee method is a simple approach. And so recently I had a friend that told me. someone that I know, I don't really know him that well, but, but his good friend, uh, was dealing with some, some type of mental health issues. And I was kind of asking him a few questions and I sent him over the algee method and a couple other resources that I thought would be helpful. Um, and I think that's where it's just like, just kind, trying to be a connector for information. Cuz that's the way it really is just like information and support. The other thing that I took away from the class was the non-labeling and basically kind of framing methodology. Um, that's still even hard for me. I still have some work on that, but just from my perspective, as someone that deals with anxiety, depression, I think I sometimes say stuff and I'm not trying to be rude or anything like that, but I just, the way that you talk and everything. And so kind of just kind of thinking about like, if someone's in a situation, not labeling them, you know, talking to them as a person versus a diagnosis. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Erin Callinan: 5:01
Absolutely. I, you know, I think you bring up such an interesting point and we're all doing the best that we can. Right. And learning about mental health and how to talk about it and reduce stigma, the language changes. And even those of us who are living with mental health conditions, like you said, can find ourselves in places where we go, what did we say? The right thing? You know, the, the goal really is how do we bring people together, meet them where they're at recognize that people are people first, prior to a diagnosis. But I really encourage folks that I work with and just feel so passionately about if we want mental health to be something that we feel safe and comfortable about, we have to have the tough conversations and we have to be able to say, you know, this is actually a better way to say this, instead of saying, you know, this bipolar person was on my podcast. No, it's Erin, who's a person living with bipolar disorder. And so I, I think if we can one give ourselves patience and grace that we're gonna make mistakes and that's okay. We can move on, learn from each other. But if we get too nervous about saying the wrong thing or doing the wrong thing, and we kind of tiptoe around the topic. We're never gonna reduce stigma. And so language does play an really important part of that. You know, one of the shifts that has been really big in the field over the last, you know, 10 years or so is shifting away from, you know, talking about somebody who suicide. Now, I used to stay committed suicide there's language that I used to use. And sometimes I still, sometimes I still do, but you know, that really kind of places, this ugly stereo typey judgmental tone around the conversation of suicide. So it's really best if we can shift that. And if somebody has taken their life, rather than saying committed suicide, we can say a person died by suicide. We're honoring that person, but we're also no longer associating their experience and their struggle as committed such as a crime committed a sin. So I think that's just one example of when we can remove some of these negative connotations, you know, it makes it more comfortable. People feel more, seen more heard and paying attention to language is important, but we have to be kind to each other and help educate each other in a way that recognizing we're, we're all learning this together, right? We're all in this same, this same space at the end of the day. If we can just see people for who they are, ask what they need, meet them there. We're doing, we're doing it right. We're we're moving in the right direct.
Kerry Finsand: 8:03
Yeah, I think that's a really good point. in my experience, again, just kind of the way you phrase things you're used to using certain words that you don't even know the meanings from the words, like, especially nowadays with kind of how our culture is, you might see a certain word and people are like, you don't say that you don't know the meaning behind it and stuff. And so I think the recent one I saw was in the, the press. I think Beyonce had in one of her recent songs, she mentions the word spazz. And I guess that's actually an offensive word because it has to do with like spasms, like people with, is it Cerebral Palsy. I think for me as like the word spazz, I didn't know that was offensive thing. I thought it was someone that, you know, you're kind of clutsy or something. So, um, I think we all have to be careful too, not to jump to conclusions that people aren't trying to, uh, offend you necessarily, they don't maybe not know the meaning. But if someone's not in a good mental health space, then they're gonna take more of offense. And so that's where we have to, okay. This isn't about me. I need to kind of take a step back and kind of think about this. And one of the things I like about the class too, is that if you're not in a good mental health space yourself, it's hard to help other people. And I think that's really important. And that's why they have the worksheet.
Erin Callinan: 9:11
Right. It, it's a, it's basically a self care action plan if you will. So we've got the, the action plan of here's what to do. Here's how you can kind of identify what next steps might be. But just as you said, we've gotta take care of ourselves as well, because if we aren't in a good. We're not necessarily able to help other people. And so if we look at our lives from spiritual perspective, you know, mental, physical, emotional, there's a lot, excuse me, there's a lot of ways that we can take care of ourselves. And that's really important. That's self care is often hard to do because we get distracted. We're busy in our lives. And so many of us say, well, we don't have time. We don't have time. We don't have time. We do have time. We just have to find it and, and make time for that. And so the mental health for state course also helps participants recognize how do we know when we need to refuel? How are we checking in with our own mental health? You know, cuz we don't leave our, we don't leave a mental health condition at the door when we show up at work or in relationships. And so people sometimes forget that we all have. Mental health, and we've gotta, we've gotta check in on our own mental health. And so that's definitely a big piece of that mental health first aid course is how are we, how are we taking care of our, our mental health? Are we seeking the services and supports? Because just like you said, if we step in and trying to support someone and we either meet them in their crisis, or it ends up being a really triggering experience for us, we've gotta step back and think maybe I'm not the right person. Who else can I bring in so that we can get this individual help?
Kerry Finsand: 11:02
Yeah, I think that's another good point. And as far as, you know, the mental health first aid, the course is roughly what? 10 to 12 hours, depending on who you take it through, is that right?
Erin Callinan: 11:13
So the total course is an eight hour course, and it can be delivered in person virtually. And because of this course now being in a virtual space, there's an hour or two of pre-course work. And then with my trainings that I facilitate, it's six hours online. Once you take all of those eight hours, either virtually or in person, that's when you receive your certificate. So you are a certified mental health first aider for the following three years.
Kerry Finsand: 11:44
Yeah. And, and I like the approach that you have because, uh, you know, every hour or so we are, you're taking a short break, which kind of is nice because, you know, it can be kind of heavy and, you
Erin Callinan: 11:54
it's a lot. Sure.
Kerry Finsand: 11:56
and, you know, honestly for me, like I've been doing, I've been dealing with insomnia last six months and I, I did that class on an hours' worth of sleep and that was intense.
Erin Callinan: 12:05
Kerry, I would've never known you were on it.
Kerry Finsand: 12:08
Yeah, yeah. I had a little caffeine help me out on it, but, you know, some parts of it, like the suicide part was like a little bit more like real, and that's kind of where I talked about. That's like the graduate level. Uh, stuff and, and what I liked about it, you said, you know, you can, it, you know, if you need to walk away from stuff you can, or you can, uh, you know, turn your video off. So I just kind of turned my video off cause I kind of wanted to kind of be in my own little world. So, so that's another thing, it's something you can take online, even if you you're in a tough space. I mean, you can still make it happen. If you believe in doing something to help yourself out and others out. That's kind of what the whole point the course is, you know, help yourself, help others. Um, um, and I know people can sign up through your courses through beneath the brave. I think the classes, are they around like 139? I wanna say.
Erin Callinan: 12:54
Yes. Correct. And there is an early bird special. So if you sign up prior to one week within the training, you can take it for 119. Otherwise the course is 139. And so that includes not only that pre-course access, but the live training, as well as the mental health first aid material.
Kerry Finsand: 13:15
Yeah, we'll have a, in the show notes, we'll have a link to your website and where they can take the course and learn more about that. Um, so now that we kind of got through through that, I wanted to kind of, uh, now talk about kind of who you are and how you got to be where you are today. And I know that you've had your own challenges with mental health as well.
Erin Callinan: 13:31
Absolutely. Yeah. You know, I, I certainly was one of those people who grew up in a fantastic home in Flagstaff, Arizona, and did not know about mental health conditions. I hadn't been impacted as a child or growing up. It's interesting. When I look back in retrospect, I definitely had anxiety, but I didn't, we didn't call it anxiety. It was like, I'm overwhelmed. I feel, I feel nervous. And, uh, you know, so, so it's kind of like that shifted a little bit. We didn't talk about mental health conditions and I didn't know anybody living with a mental health Condit. Again, in retrospect, absolutely. There's one out of four, one out of five of us living with a mental health condition. But as I went throughout my, uh, teenage years, I had a manic episode when I was 17 and ended up being hospitalized, which, you know, 22 years later working in mental health, I'm so thankful to see the progress that has taken place yet. There's still a lot of work, right? I mean, to this day, my first hospitalization is one of the most traumatic things that I've been through. And I started my senior year of high school. Four days later, really overmedicated and felt this immense pressure of. I've gotta fake it till I make it. I am humiliated. There's no way anybody can find out I'm damaged, I'm broken, there's something wrong with me. And so had a, you know, a difficult time almost kind of grieving the person that I knew myself to be and, and taking ownership. Eventually it was kind of a hot mess for a little while, but then I got to the place where it's like, okay, if I were diagnosed with diabetes or an autoimmune disease, whatever, we'd go, here's the issue. How can I manage it? And what's the plan moving forward? And my family was very much like, okay, Erin, this is devastating for our family in a lot of ways, but at the end of the day, it's like, you gotta, we gotta do something. You know, I, I just, I, I didn't wanna be victim to that. And so. you know, after a couple of years and incredible, uh, incredible psychiatrist, I did therapy. I started to learn that struggling with your mental health is not a death sentence. It doesn't last forever, at least the, the downside of it. And so I ultimately, you know, got comfortable talking about it and, and sort of fell in love with stigma reduction and, and advocacy. So after college, I started my work in a domestic and sexual violence shelter and was just struck by the resilience of families and kiddos who could experience such tragedy and be strong. And I mean, just take ownership of their life. And so I ended. Kind of spilling the beans in my career about living with a mental illness and it was petrifying and scary. And then I found out so many other people were like, oh my gosh, me too, my brother, my mom, my cousin and I, it was so comforting to be seen as Erin and some of these other experiences I'd been through. And so falling in love with advocacy and speaking out led me to write and publish my book beautifully bipolar and inspiring look at mental illness because I tell you what, when you Google mental illness, it, it can be petrifying, especially, you know, in, in 2001. So I just kind of took the leap of faith and. I'm willing to talk about it because it's what I need for my mental health. And I popped into the mental health field in the advocacy field. And here I am today, it's, it's been, it's been several years and, you know, I just, I think the, the more that we have the courage to talk about it, the more we invite people into, into this club that says, you know, hey, it's okay. It's okay to not be okay. It's right. To struggle. And, and still have a beautiful life.
Kerry Finsand: 18:01
What I like about that is that, you know, you had your own experiences, then you opened up, you kind of, which helps other people out because they're like, oh, I have that issue too. Or I have some, I have my own issue, which I think which is very helpful. And that's, that's what I'm doing right now. That's kind of my whole kind of purpose of this podcast too, is to help myself out in others. And what I like is that then you, obviously, you wanted to help other people out and, you know, and working in those types of centers that can be traumatic in its own own, right. Cuz just the emotions that you can feel from what everyone's dealing with. But I like what you said in that you kind of learn lessons from them and how resilient that they are. From my perspective, I'm like, wow, that'd be really a tough job to do. Especially if you're a person that has some, some type of mental health issue.
Erin Callinan: 18:47
Right.
Kerry Finsand: 18:48
Like, is that gonna make it worse or something almost, but it sounds like it was kind of a therapeutic thing and then you were around other people and this kind of peer support system and that we all need that sense of community. Writing a book is not easy. Especially back then, but there wasn't as many resources. So how, did you go about doing that?
Erin Callinan: 19:05
Yeah. You know, it's, it's interesting because I I've always journaled, I've always loved to write. It was sort of this safe dungeon for me, where I could just, I could be mad and pissed off and grateful and all of these things and it was kind of this time capsule. And so when I first started writing the book, it was really from a place of, of anger, to be honest, it was from a place of I'm tired of the labels. I'm tired of no, you know, there was, there was really no kind of access at that time to how do you get through this? It's like, here's all the terrible things that happen when you live with a mental illness. But there was like, but I don't want that to be my life. There's gotta be other ways. And so I ultimately took many of those journals and that sort of was the development of the book. And, you know, it went from, I'm tired of the stigma, you know, I want my voice to be heard and I want other people's voices to be heard. And so, you know, it was, it was scary because like, I'm literally opening up my, my journal to the world, but it was one of the most cathartic things I had I had done. And it was, it was useful in my healing to be able to total transparency. Like here's the, the yuck of what my experience has been, but I'm okay. And things have been hard, but here's what worked for me. It may not work for you. We're all different. We have unique experiences, but there's light at the end of the tunnel and there's there's sunshine. And so, you know, really being inspired by other people who had experienced so much pain that were also living these incredible lives. And, and just like you said, I, I didn't have experience working in that field, but I loved kiddos. My undergrad is in elementary education. So I thought I'm gonna work in this youth shelter. And during that interview, they ended up saying, well, we have more kiddos in the women's domestic violence shelter. And so that really was a lot of, of in, you know, influence or passion for me to share my story. And the results were shocking. You know, it's like, people might hate this, right? Nobody might read this. People may view me differently. Going to impact my career. Like people are gonna find out this big, dirty secret of mine. And I just, I have not had that experience. I mean, I'm sure there's people who maybe don't like it or didn't read it or don't care and that's okay. But it has allowed me to connect with people that I wouldn't have otherwise met. And so I tell folks, you know, if you've got a story in, in talking about it is what you wanna do, go for it, cuz you never know how many people you can influence and support. And in turn, literally writing and publishing a book, was it, it helped me heal. It helped remind me of why taking care of myself is so important because living with a mental illness, isn't easy. So surrounding yourself by some other people like you. Who are like, yeah, I get it. I I've been there and, and things can be tough and, and that's okay.
Kerry Finsand: 22:45
That's okay. I like that kind of phrase. And, and that's something I've been kind of learning more about just to talk to people like you and counselor and reading and, recently I interviewed a friend that the interview's gonna come out next week and we were talking about the Chrysalis time where you're the caterpillar is in the cocoon and before it becomes a butterfly and it's kind of, it's in this kind of transitional stage and that's okay. You don't need to like, say it's good or bad. And for me, I would also be like, oh, I'm in like this bad space or I'm in this space, but it's like, you know, don't, you're in this space. It's, you know, that's what it is own. It don't, don't say it's good or bad, just own it. So you kind of, you know, you do this brave thing, you publish the book, you put some, you know, the good vibes out there and, and good vibes come back to you. And then from that, you kind of in your career, you kind of moved along and what different places you work at after that?
Erin Callinan: 23:36
So I was in, so I was born and raised in Flagstaff. So I was, uh, at the domestic violence shelter there for three years and then moved down to Phoenix and ended up working for an organization where I was the director of domestic violence initiatives and was able to work a continuation of working with survivors. But then I was also able, I did training all around the country and partnering with the victim advocates and law enforcement. And I started to really not only fall in love with the importance of knowledge and education, but getting involved in some legislative advocacy, how do we make sure that, you know, state senators and representatives hear the challenge and some of the struggles that everyday families face. And so I was able to, um, ultimately shift out of that and then move into mental health full time. And so I was the executive director of mental health, America of Arizona for a bit, and was able to continue some of that legislative advocacy alongside families. Uh, you know, one specific family had lost their son to suicide and, you know, went from we're mom and dad, and we don't want this to ever happen again. And they just started knocking on doors at the Capitol and it was so inspiring. And they ended up, uh, you know, basically passing an incredibly large piece of legislation called Jake's law in honor of their son. And it was a pivotal moment. So I wanted to fully invest my time and life and energy in mental health. And it ultimately led me to starting my own business so that we could have real honest conversations for and with folks outside of the system. So I'll give you an example, something I struggled with, uh, you know, I was fortunate in that as I, you know, had my first episode, my family, we had insurance and so my family was able to pay for services, but there was some limitations throughout my life because I didn't qualify for some of the community based services that would've been really beneficial for me. And so, you know, I, I wanted to be able to talk about those things. Freely and kind of off the record that let's talk about real life, real people and have real talk, real conversations. And so that's when I ultimately, you know, took the leap with a lot of support and love from people in my life and left my profession in nonprofit, which was all that I knew and, you know, started my own company. And it has been, you know, one of those experiences where, where I think anybody, regardless of having a mental illness goes, oh my gosh, like, can I do this? What if I fail? It was like, well, you might fail, but fail forward. And, and that's kind of the rejection of, you know, of, of how I've come to this place. And, you know, we'll see where, where, where it takes me next.
Kerry Finsand: 26:46
Well, yeah, it's, it's hard when you start something, you have that imposter syndrome and like, yeah.
Erin Callinan: 26:52
Oh my gosh.
Kerry Finsand: 26:52
is this gonna be real? But what I liked about what you've done is I, I think if you build something around passion and not, not your ego, but you look at it as a passion, then it's something that's going to come to fruition. Um, it's something that you're gonna, you know, be happy, truly doing versus, you know, working for others. Sometimes isn't the right fit. And that's, that's part, that's part of this podcast too, is just talking about, you know, for businesses, you know, getting people to find what they're passionate about and taking that step to, to launch it, getting that momentum going, but then also being healthy in, in, in their expectations. Like even with launching this podcast, I was like, oh, it's gonna be this huge thing. And I was in a grandiose and I kind of went into that, my default mode, like, let's blow this thing up. And then I was like, okay, I need to really take this back and just have fun with it. And it's, it's a, marathon's not a sprint. And so that's why I have podcast episodes every other week, just so it gives myself, you know, the amount of time to, you know, have relaxation and other things.
Erin Callinan: 27:52
Yeah, yeah,
Kerry Finsand: 27:53
but, but yeah, for you starting that, that for, so you starting that business, I think what's great is that you had. your own personal experience with mental health, then you professionally work for nonprofits. So you're in that world, you traveled around. So you got an idea. So you have a very interesting perspective then from there, you're like, I have this idea and I need to kind of do it on my own. Just kind my own kind of way of thinking and everything I've learned. And then, and then you went for it. And so I think I was excited anytime I have friends that wanna do something, even it's like a hobby or side hustle, whatever I'm always so encouraging. I'm like, yeah, let's do what excites me, cuz I'm like, just go for it. Cuz if you don't try things out in life, you know, you're gonna regret it. And, and so that's where I think, you know, people, some people wanna have a safe job for 30 years and that's totally fine. Everyone's different. And there's some great challenge, great things with that. And being an entrepreneur, uh, obviously leads to, even if you have mental health issues, it it's, it's a wild ride. So it makes it more of a challenge. So that's great that, that you did that. Can you tell us a little bit about the consulting you do for for businesses that you help them kind of educate them about mental health, how that works?
Erin Callinan: 28:59
Yeah, definitely. I, you know, was, was really inspired by some of the, the mentors that I had had in my life, where they supported me and being able to be open and honest in my work. But there's also the opposite side of that, where that, that is not always the experience. And I've had some negative experiences along the way where, uh, you know, there's that, there's that fear of what are the pros and cons of disclosing having a mental health condition in the workplace? What about accommodations? Do I, do I qualify? And for me, a lot of it was like, do I deserve that? You know, I'm, I I'm doing very well. And, and I've been successful in my career. Am I deserving of accommodation? Is it okay for me to say like, ah, I don't know what I'm doing. And you know, sometimes I found that it was leadership that maybe didn't always have those tools to talk about mental health or how to best support employees. And I, you know, wanted to, wanted to change that and had learned a lot from, you know, the previous organizations that I had worked with. So I ultimately, I created a course. And it's called leading from the top. So if we're gonna create cultures where workplaces focus and care about mental health, from a prevention perspective, it's gotta start at the top. And so this, this leading from the top training is ultimately seven, seven to nine modules, and it's for companies and, and corporations from a leadership perspective, how can HR, how can CEOs, how can supervisors best support employees? And what does that look like? What are some of their legal obligations, as well as for employees? How can we advocate for ourselves and, you know, talk about stigma, let folks know what we need. So the leading from the top training is kind of an overview of what can employers do. You know, kind of, like I said, from that prevention perspective, That if I go and apply for a job and in their interview, they make mention of, you know, mental health and self care is a big part of our company, because we want all of our employees to feel healthy, supported, and valued. What do you do for self care? Like, I, I would've, I would celebrate for that question to be on every interview. And so, you know, that's what I mean by that preventative piece, if that's already included upfront in the interview then in onboarding. And then if I say if, but really when ex you know, challenges come up where employees need support, which is all of us, especially over the last many years, this course is really about what do you do from there? And, you know, keep people working and supporting them. And it takes a lot of work to do that in investment and. You know, as an individual with a mental illness, I think there's, there's fear in what, what are my rights and can I lose my job? And so that was really sort of the, the reason behind why I created that course.
Kerry Finsand: 32:19
What would be maybe a couple examples of maybe what a module is and covers?
Erin Callinan: 32:26
Great. Yeah. So, you know, a couple different examples, there's sort of, you know, some companies will bring me on to do consulting for kind of a general overview of what is the prevalence of mental health conditions. What are some of the things that you can look for in the workplace that might indicate a staff member needs support, and then there's modules about, you know, having the conversation, what are things that you can not only ask an employee? What are things you cannot ask, but how do you have a conversation about them being an employee and being successfully employed. That's not about their mental health, but it's about their job performance and what can be done to, to support them. So is it, you know, amplifying and boosting up employee assistance programs, there's some modules that are specifically for leadership that talk about how do you create an employee resource group? How do you modify accommodations what's documentation that's needed to request accommodations, so it can go from some modules or sort of general about here's how to have the conversation. Here's how we reduce stigma. And here's how to check in on, on your coworkers all the way to upper management. How do you evaluate, you know, feedback from your team about if they're getting the support that they need to do their job and do it well,
Kerry Finsand: 33:53
And so, basically the modules all in like self guided online type course. Is that what that is?
Erin Callinan: 34:00
So this specific course is I facilitate live. So I do it virtually or in person. So some companies want one of the nine modules and we just deliver kind of a one and done. So it's not, you know, you don't have to start at module one and bring me on for all nine modules. I really wanna get a sense of what each company needs, meet them there. And they pick which modules they think best fit. So it can be delivered in a variety of, in a variety of ways. All of the modules are one hour in person or virtual and you can have up to a hundred and people attend each, each module. So I wanted it to be fluid in that it's not, you know, completely stuck to what is involved in each module. You know, here's the learning objectives for this module. Companies can, you know, be fluid in that, but you can do one module. You can do nine modules. The, the hope is that the conversations will continue. Research supports that one and done 60 minute trainings does not shift culture. So it's about preparing companies to continue in this conversation and really implement, like I said, employee resource groups implement ongoing training, implement, you know, things that increase the effectiveness and job performance of everybody that works there.
Kerry Finsand: 35:28
That's great. I've taken like diversity training before. Um, and I haven't done anything in mental health space before, but do you teach a class too? That like all employees can take too in the company. That's part of it too. Oh, great.
Erin Callinan: 35:42
Anybody can anybody can take it. So, you know, I, I did a couple courses last month for a large insurance group. One of the courses we separated out and we had the entire team, all employees attend, and then we had another session for supervisors. It was helpful because that sort of allowed space for everybody to be a little more authentic, as opposed to, you know, oh my gosh, my boss is right here in this training with me, but the, the courses are open to absolutely anybody in any work, you know, place in any workplace or company where you really wanna prioritize mental health and get the steps and the tools for actually doing that.
Kerry Finsand: 36:22
That's I like that because I, you know, some places they may say that they're supportive of mental health, but they're not, I would say like, it's just kind of a, a check mark, you know, on a box, on a list or whatever. And, um, but to really have it built in and then have something like this, though diversity training that I did, we had like breakout sessions and stuff on like zoom. And so we gotta kind of talk about like our perspectives on everything too, which was nice because that's the one thing, you know, theory is great and all, but if you're not practicing it, then you kind of forget about it. So, the next thing I wanna talk, and this is something that I am very interested in learning more about is in my own experience, I've worked at some different companies. Um, there wasn't any really support for mental health. I had no idea where to talk to people. I even did some searches online and I still didn't know what I was doing. And, and, um, so what are resources for people that you know, are dealing with mental health and they're working for an employer and they're kind of scared on, you know, who to talk to, what to bring up. Should they even do it or not? So what are some steps that you would suggest for that?
Erin Callinan: 37:26
Sure. So, you know, there's, there's a few different things. One, the EEOC is always incredibly helpful. It's good for people to know that you can't be fired. Well, let me rephrase that. It's illegal to be fired because of your mental health condition. You have the right to request accommodations, but figuring out, like you said, well, how do I do that? And where do I start? So I would encourage people. You can go to the EEOC website and get a better understanding of what your rights are. So, one of which, if you have a mental health condition that's been diagnosed, you are protected under the Americans With Disabilities Act. The challenge. I think sometimes that happens though. Is your workplace is not required to provide accommodation if they don't know that there's a medical issue. So there's that, you know, do I disclose, do I not disclose there's some great mental health, peer education organizations that I think can offer great tools? One of which is NAMI, which is the National Alliance On Mental Illness and they're a peer and family national organization, and they have great resources to help people really learn about advocacy. And so I always encourage people with lived experiences and their families to visit NAMI. Mental Health america is also a national organization that has really helpful tools, not only about workplace, but kind of generally, how do we advocate for ourselves? So I would recommend. You know, EEOC, NAMI, MHA and finding out what is the culture of the company? I like Kerry, that you mentioned, you know, some companies are like, we really care about mental health, but that doesn't really translate. And so what if a company did a, you know, across the board anonymous survey about how they feel, how is mental health talked about in that company? Does the company hire people with known mental health conditions? How do they respond? And then taking that information and actually putting it to use and tracking trainings that are done tracking outcomes, using data to actually shift the culture. And so if folks don't know, you know, am I protected? Do I have to tell my employer. One you are protective and know you don't have to tell your employer. I think the best resource would certainly be the EEOC. They also have information about how to file a grievance. If you've experienced discrimination, how do you find your local entity within your state to, to make a complaint to file that charge?
Kerry Finsand: 40:20
You know, it's interesting because I never really thought of mental health as a disability. Cuz I I'm like, oh I, you know, over it's always been like, you have to, you know, tough it out is always what I've had in my mentality. And, and then I was thinking about people disabilities, you know, maybe they're in wheelchairs or they're blind or, you know, different, different things like that. But then I was started thinking about that. I'm like, wow, this actually is a disability. Makes life a lot, a lot harder. And, uh, so if I'm not even thinking it's a disability, then how are others people gonna think it's a disability.
Erin Callinan: 40:51
Yeah, you're not alone. I didn't think it was a disability. I didn't view it that way. And I didn't know that I could request accommodations. I knew I could do it when I was in college. I got involved in the disability resource center, which just, as you mentioned, because from the outside, you couldn't physically see that I was living with a disability. It was like, I always had to prove myself, like I would give my professors like my accommodation and which was really, I needed, I needed additional time on tests and I needed additional excused absences so I could remain in treatment. Um, if I was doing medication changes, sleep was really hard. And as you mentioned, insomnia, it's really hard to function when you don't sleep. But it was like, it, it. I just, I, from the outside, they were like, but what is this for? But why? And, you know, obviously that was that was really challenging. But in the workplace, I didn't know that I was covered under the ADA. If, if you know, I, I had a diagnose mental illness, I had no clue. So I think you bring up a great point that many of us, I don't think, maybe view it in that way or view that we do have access to certain resources. If we ask for them,
Kerry Finsand: 42:05
It's really interesting. I had, uh, this happened to me a couple different times recently, people I've talked to, uh, someone that I was on his podcast recently became friends recently and he's, he was interviewing me and he's like, you're this upbeat guy I would never know. And you've done a lot of, you've done a lot of interesting things in your life. I would never have thought. And I said, it's kind of. I kind of call it the great actor. Like I'm I can, maybe I should be the actor. That's why a lot of people are probably actors and performers because you get really good at hiding things and putting a certain face on. And so that, that's just something in my mind, this kind of popped in my head that kind of relates to this. I think.
Erin Callinan: 42:44
Yeah. And, and it's, it's interesting, you bring that up because that's literally why I named my company beneath the brave, because there's so much pressure to have that brave face, right. To put, pull yourself up outta your bootstraps and fake it till you make it and, and wearing that mask as you know is so exhausting, but it also kind of in society, I think shows that if you're struggling or if you live with a mental health condition, it's obvious and you're wearing that on your face. You're you know, it it's, you're the person in the corner, in the puddle. Well, are we sometimes the person in the corner in the puddle? Yes, but you can't look at somebody and see if they're living with a mental health condition. So it's. If we can take off that brave face and get beneath it and make it okay to be however we are and not have to feel the pressure to, you know, wear that mask. I think we can make some good progress there.
Kerry Finsand: 43:43
That's that's great. I didn't realize that was the, the meaning behind that. That's it's cool. And there's, you know, it's and it also, it's also just hard to choose a business name cuz everything's taken, you know, so that's part of it too. You're like, oh, I love this name. And, and uh, so that that's, that's great. There's actually a lot of meaning behind it, you know? And sometimes people just have a name cuz they're like, oh yeah, we, we just like combine some different words together. We invented our own name. There's like no meaning behind it, but you know,
Erin Callinan: 44:08
Yeah. Yeah. It's when I first started consulting work, I was like, I'll be Callinan consulting. And then I'm like, wait, nobody can say or spell my last name. So I, you know, you gotta scratch that. And you know, when, when you do work that you care so passionately about, I thought it was important to have representation about, you know, why, why I'm doing what I'm.
Kerry Finsand: 44:27
Yeah, and just kind of a couple other points with getting back to, you know, if you're working for a company and you're trying to deal with mental, um, or talked about your mental health and everything are there certain reasonable accommodations that you could speak to? Is that something you know, much about or to.
Erin Callinan: 44:43
Absolutely. So anybody can request a reasonable accommodation. Oftentimes you might have to tell your employer, you know, and provide medical documentation that you're living with a mental health condition, but they're obligated to approve and honor that reasonable accommodation, as long as it doesn't create some significant financial barrier. So some examples of that might be changing your schedule. So if you're finding, you know, for example, living with that insomnia and your work schedule is from 5:00 AM to 2:00 PM. You may not be able to perform your job functions well and be successful because of that. So you might request a shift in your schedule. You might request to have every Tuesday from 11 to 12 off so that you can go see your therapist. Maybe it's a shift in where you're physically located. You know, if you work in the bullpen and there's a lot of noise and distraction and people moving about, can you request to, you know, work in a different part of the office where there's a little bit more space? You know, I think sometimes people think a reasonable accommodation or the requesting it, you have to, you know, really be like on the edge of losing your job. You have to wait until it gets so bad to request this big thing. It doesn't need to be that way.
Kerry Finsand: 46:11
It's opposite.
Erin Callinan: 46:12
It's totally the opposite. It's like ask early, figure out what you need and have no shame. And asking, there's also not this big, scary process for requesting. If you recognize that maybe your current job duties you are, whether it's medication or therapy, or you're just living with the overwhelm of life and kids and family, you know, maybe you're asking to have a shift in those job duties that you're gonna take these two, three things off your plate. You're gonna be able to delegate that. And then you're gonna revisit this with your supervisor in three months to, to ask for that accommodation. You just ask for that accommodation, go to your supervisor or your HR, whoever that identified professional is, and let them know what you need so they can, they really can be these simple things that impact you. So, you know, significantly. So you think about what would help you do your job? Well, because if you're struggling with your mental health and the frequency of that struggle is getting worse, it's getting more intense. As you mentioned, you may not view yourself as someone living with a disability, which is fine. That doesn't matter one way or the other. But if your mental health is impacting your ability to do your job and be healthy and able to be productive, you deserve that accommodation. And those things can be, like I said, a change in your schedule, moving places in the office, delegating, you know, those are all, all things that people even living without mental health conditions find themselves and needing to shift those shift. Those priorities, maybe it's asking for more check-ins from your supervisor.
Kerry Finsand: 48:03
I think that in my experience, with guys is kind of that whole kind of toughness thing too, where like, oh, I'm gonna deal with that. You're like, is really, really tough. And, uh, I should have talked to Erin like a year ago, but, uh, she would've, she would've gave me some good suggestions, but I just, I just think for me in the past, I was at a job and I didn't ever had any time to myself is like, inbound you always have to answer the phone. And I was running a department and it was just like, I need some time do my own things and breathe a little bit. So, um, if it's not benefiting you to be in this tough mode not, and ignoring the science cuz then it get only gets worse. So I think those are some great points.
Erin Callinan: 48:40
Like you just mentioned, I just wanna mention too, even something, you know, anybody can and should, if you need support in doing your job, you should be able to talk to your supervisor about that. And like you said, you know, needing some space needing some time, it might even. I, you know, we live in this culture where you're supposed to work, work, work, work, work all the time, always be accessible. It might even be just really creating boundaries around that. Or having your supervisor communicate with you in writing, maybe via email, maybe text is better for you so that, you know, you can do your job and maybe if you're not sleeping and you're not doing great, it's hard to remember maybe what happened in those conversations. So, you know, I'm, I'm glad you brought that up because there, there are just simple things that people can do. You don't have to wait for a crisis to let your, let your supervisor know what you need.
Kerry Finsand: 49:33
Yeah. And sometimes you're working in a place that's a great culture. And when you have those great cultures, it's much, it's way easier to talk to people cuz you just feel, uh, so open and so supportive and everything. So when you're in those organizations that aren't, that's where it gets really tricky. Um, and that's where there's not any special, uh, way of doing things, no magic pill to take, you know, what would be some suggestions for kind of figuring out who this person should talk to, whether it's HR, a manager, even peers, uh, you know, kind of that support system.
Erin Callinan: 50:07
Yeah, I think it's really about what you need. You know, if you can talk to a colleague that, you know, you feel safe, you feel comfortable with, you have a rapport with, that might be all you need. And maybe between the two of you, they, you know, you come up with, Hey, they're gonna check in on you. You know, maybe you say, Hey, I, so for example, presenteeism is something that a lot of people experience where I gotta be at work. So I show up to work, but I'm not really there. I'm not really present. And so you might talk to a coworker and you say, man, I'm really struggling to focus. It's hard for me to stay on task. It's hard for me to maybe remember things. So the accommodation or that conversation, they could say, Hey, I'll check in on you in the mornings. Why don't we have a five minute check in of going down the list of what you're gonna work on today. If you don't feel confident or comfortable doing that, or maybe that wouldn't actually give you the change that you need or give that you, the support that you need go to your supervisor. Not everybody has that supportive supervisor though. So there might be that that con or the pro of disclosure, if you disclose to your supervisor and you're up for a promotion in a week, you know, even though this shouldn't be the case, it's very realistic that them knowing could influence their decision. Will they see you as an accountable candidate for that promotion. So, you know, it really goes back to the person. Do they feel comfortable talking to a supervisor or might it be going to HR? You know, I think HR gets a bad rep because there's this assumption of like, you only go to HR when, you know, you're in trouble or something terrible happened. But HR, I think nationally with a lot of training and bringing mental health to the forefront, they should have access to resources, whether that's through the employee assistance program, they should have local and national resources of who you can call and talk to confidentially. And HR has to hold what you share with them in confidence. So you could, you know, you don't have to go to your supervisor. You could go straight to HR to talk to them about what you need, and they cannot share that information. Even with other coworkers. So that should be a safe place to go and talk about maybe what your experience is. It's fluid. It changes, it depends on the company. I wish, like you said, there was this magic pill or this one way that all companies functioned, that's just not the case. So trust your gut connect with some peer services or mental health companies who can help you, you know, create that dialogue or how to have that conversation. You know, a as you talked about earlier, the leading from the top program, folks can reach out to me. I can, you know, with, or without the training pass along resources, but, you know, realistically HR should, should be your go-to.
Kerry Finsand: 53:19
I really like that appreciate that information cuz it's something that I'm trying to learn more about and it's not an easy thing to do and what I've done in the past too is sometimes maybe I'll like write an email, but I won't send it and just cuz I wanna get my thoughts out and then I'll have my, I'll have my wife look at it or something or if it's something I wanna send, cuz she's very, very logical. And so I think sometimes that's helpful too, is if you have someone close to you that can look at it from a more logical and not emotional perspective.
Erin Callinan: 53:46
Yeah. Give yourself some, some time and space.
Kerry Finsand: 53:49
Yeah, just think it over and everything. Those are all really good things for the workspace. I think. The whole kind of diversity training is changing, you know, in America and mental health is it's slowly getting on the radar there, but it's great that people like you are instructing businesses, uh, that there are opportunities. And I think it's for a lot of people, it could be a great recruiting tool. If you're someone, you know, mental health challenges. And just because you have mental health challenges, uh, a lot of us are highly function functioning and stuff still, but, you know, we just have some additional challenges we have to go through. So if we find companies that actually have a support system, you wanna work there and you know, hopefully it's a longevity thing for both parties and everything.
Erin Callinan: 54:32
Yeah.
Kerry Finsand: 54:32
Any other topics that come to mind that you think would be good to cover? I think we really hit all the major points that I wanted to cover today, but anything else you can think of?
Erin Callinan: 54:40
You know, the only other thing that I'll mention like you brought. Sometimes folks who are high functioning tend to be overlooked and it seems I go back and forth with this and, you know, have dealt with some insecurities in the past of do I have to wait till I'm really, really struggling? Do I have to wait till I'm really sick to go, Hey, I need help. I need support those that are high functioning kind of slip under the radar a little bit. And so one thing that I will mention I'm really excited about. I just recently launched a Amplify Your Life Masterclass, and it's ultimately for peers, for anybody who has struggled with their mental health. And it's ultimately a shortcut to learning how to advocate for yourself. It's sort of this compilation of here's what I learned by going through it and learning the hard way. Oftentimes. Here's what I've taken from my profession from getting my masters. But it's for anybody who's lived with a mental health condition, struggled in the past or present, and you wanna learn how to set boundaries. What should you share with your mental health provider exploring, maybe taking medication? What might services look like? How do you ask for help? How do you tell people what you need? And so I'll offer that up as a potential resource, if folks might be interested, you can find information on my website, but it is a seven module online self-paced demand course. So folks can log in it $97. You have access to that course for as long as you want it. And it comes with a 70 page workbook. So this is like, if you're committed, you wanna make some change. You wanna really amplify your life. This might be a great course for you.
Kerry Finsand: 56:30
That's great. I like it's approachable with how you built it, as well as the price point. And then also having the theory, the practice versus just theory, I read a lot of things, but then you don't always practice it. You don't, you don't
Erin Callinan: 56:42
yeah.
Kerry Finsand: 56:43
remember how these things work. So to actually put something together, cuz you can read books forever. You can try things forever, but if you don't fully commit to it and, and do the hard work, it's not gonna truly benefit you. So we'll have notes to that in our show notes and promote it, um, on the show when we promote it online and everything. I think that's a great resource. I want to thank you for your time today. Lots of good nuggets of information. Where can people find you online?
Erin Callinan: 57:07
Yeah, I so appreciate it, Kerry. I wanna thank you. The work that you're doing and your willingness to have these conversations and be vulnerable is so inspiring and so impactful. So I really appreciate the opportunity to be here with you. Congratulations. This podcast is incredible.
Kerry Finsand: 57:25
Thank you so much that it means a lot to me. It's been a challenging year and this has been kind of part of my, uh, therapy, if you will. So thanks a lot. I appreciate it.
Erin Callinan: 57:32
They can find me online, my website beneaththebrave.com. They can also pop over. Find me Erin Callinan on LinkedIn. And you can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok under beneath the brave.
Kerry Finsand: 57:47
Perfect. Well, as I always end the show, remember you're not alone in life or business.
